Pill millipedes in captivity:

[Matt K]

I'm confused as to how two years in captivity with observed growth can equate to "failure".?? Aside from a failure to breed them...1. What is the lifespan of pill millipedes in the wild, anyway? Does anybody really know this information?

2. Is it possible that the Madagascan species are simply more sensitive to the pressures of export/import and re-shipping and/or that they had received no reasonable care for the month+ long journey to the end consumer's front door?

3. Rather than an absence of good digestive bacteria, might it be the presence of our exotic (native) bacteria of fungi that is killing them?

Well to me "failure" is keeping something that is doomed to a death without reproduction...its a dead end road. There is no captive propogation or culture, just maintenance until dead.

Q: How many constitutes a 'starter culture'? Is there any reason to think 100 would be better than 12?

1a. I would think it would be several years just like other millipedes form various parts of the world- they all seem to have that in common. (assumption).

2a. Yes, thats possible, and likely, but that is a great reason to not try to get any to keep...

3a. This is possible too. So if that were the case it is again a bad idea to try to obtain and keep something if you can only keep it in a toxic environment.

I for one am completely NOT convinced its a problem with 'digestive bacteria'- that sounds like something someone made up along the way as it is a very easy and convenient explanation to assume without any facts to base it on. Did someone do a study of the gut fauna of fresh imports and then another on freshly deceased specimens to note an absence?

Shipping stress is much more plausible to me.... but there still seems to be something else otherwise I think at least a few of the ones that made it to Europe or America would have made it long term....

There is a person in a German university that I emailed whom I am hoping will chime in here.... and Orin, who I consider to be a leading domestic authority on 'pedes (among other bugs).

 

[Zephyr]

I'm kinda dumb to 'pedes, but, could it be possible that the only ones imported/sold are near the end of their life and would die even with proper care anyways?

 

[Peter Clausen]

Matt, I appreciate your responses to my quest for information about these bugs.

First, I want to make a quick off-topic clarification about the reproduction of bugs in captivity. Only a tiny percentage of bugs sold or exchanged, etc. ever end up having the opportunity to reproduce because they aren't presented with mates. Even if they do mate, the eggs or hatchlings are often doomed to death by negligence. My rough estimate is that less than 1% of pet bugs actually contribute genes to a successive generation. As an example, consider the number of AGB’s, tarantulas and scorpions that have been imported in the last decade vs. the (apparent) number of breeding successes. Tried to buy an AGB lately? Would tarantulas be so expensive if everybody was able to reproduce them by the hundreds?

Now, I understand that the point of this discussion is about how pill millipedes have been impossible to breed in captivity. Yet, I still question whether it is too soon to pass judgment. Certainly, it is for me because I'm not aware of very many people ever having had them. I admit that the only information I have about them comes from this discussion, so I will continue to ask more questions, seeking what is known vs. what is supposed.

Matt, you said you only had the Tanzanian species once and they lived two years. I have a lot of respect for you as a breeder. I fail to see why two years with growth doesn’t constitute some success (you originally said people can’t get them to “live”) and why their failure to reproduce under your conditions might not have been a fluke. After all, you’ve only kept them once. I realize you participate in many discussions on many forums and so I realize you have a tap on "the word on the street". But, I'm still seeking factual first hand info. here as I learn...

Yes, I believe that 100 is better than 12 to start with.

1. How many Tanzanian’s did you have, Matt?

2. How many lived to two years?

3. Were they mature?

4. How many other people have had male/female pairs of these? (I really have no idea, but to judge them as being impossible suggests that these are far more commonly imported and attempted in the hobby than I realized.)

5. How many other people that did have them had the first clue about millipede care, I wonder?

I don't mean to single you out, Matt, but you are the only person here aside from Rafigos that is offering first hand experience/feedback. Rafigos...how many do you have and how are they doing? Males and females, sizes? Do we know what species Rafigos has?

Thank you!

Peter

 

[Allpet Roaches]

The adventive Tanzanian pill millipedes probably live a decade going from their molt frequency (once a year for larger animals) and many people have never seen them molt despite thousands upon thousands that have been imported. AGBs are a difficult animal to breed but I know a few dozen people who have done it with certainty and I imagine there are hundreds more I don't know. The madagascan pills either ship poorly or are subjected to something by the exporter to prevent survival and breeding (this is not that odd since many fish in the past have been purposely sterilized by heating them up to the point where they nearly die). I only imagine this could be the case because the Madagascan fire millipedes that used to be imported along with them were likewise damaged but are otherwise hardy.

 

[Matt K]

I can't believe 100 would be any different than 12.

1. How many Tanzanian’s did you have, Matt?

I had 15, 3 died within a month, the next 12 lived almost 2 years.

2. How many lived to two years?

Just short of two years they started failing one here and one there untilall gone in about 2 years.

3. Were they mature?

No. Based on thier size and that they grew some in that time. Not getting as large as described on paper.

4. How many other people have had male/female pairs of these? (I really have no idea, but to judge them as being impossible suggests that these are far more commonly imported and attempted in the hobby than I realized.)

No way to know, though thousands have been imported.

5. How many other people that did have them had the first clue about millipede care, I wonder?

That is hard to know. There are quite a few millipede enthusiasts out there (www.diplopoda.de to start with).

I don't mean to single you out, Matt, but you are the only person here aside from Rafigos that is offering first hand experience/feedback.

No problem

Do we know what species Rafigos has?

Need more photos to know. But its reasonable to guess Arthrosphaera genus... there is one very similar in the region Arthrosphaera magna but has much more dark colors.... let me look into possiblilites...

 

[rafiqos]

Matt, I appreciate your responses to my quest for information about these bugs.First, I want to make a quick off-topic clarification about the reproduction of bugs in captivity. Only a tiny percentage of bugs sold or exchanged, etc. ever end up having the opportunity to reproduce because they aren't presented with mates. Even if they do mate, the eggs or hatchlings are often doomed to death by negligence. My rough estimate is that less than 1% of pet bugs actually contribute genes to a successive generation. As an example, consider the number of AGB’s, tarantulas and scorpions that have been imported in the last decade vs. the (apparent) number of breeding successes. Tried to buy an AGB lately? Would tarantulas be so expensive if everybody was able to reproduce them by the hundreds?

Now, I understand that the point of this discussion is about how pill millipedes have been impossible to breed in captivity. Yet, I still question whether it is too soon to pass judgment. Certainly, it is for me because I'm not aware of very many people ever having had them. I admit that the only information I have about them comes from this discussion, so I will continue to ask more questions, seeking what is known vs. what is supposed.

Matt, you said you only had the Tanzanian species once and they lived two years. I have a lot of respect for you as a breeder. I fail to see why two years with growth doesn’t constitute some success (you originally said people can’t get them to “live”) and why their failure to reproduce under your conditions might not have been a fluke. After all, you’ve only kept them once. I realize you participate in many discussions on many forums and so I realize you have a tap on "the word on the street". But, I'm still seeking factual first hand info. here as I learn...

Yes, I believe that 100 is better than 12 to start with.

1. How many Tanzanian’s did you have, Matt?

2. How many lived to two years?

3. Were they mature?

4. How many other people have had male/female pairs of these? (I really have no idea, but to judge them as being impossible suggests that these are far more commonly imported and attempted in the hobby than I realized.)

5. How many other people that did have them had the first clue about millipede care, I wonder?

I don't mean to single you out, Matt, but you are the only person here aside from Rafigos that is offering first hand experience/feedback. Rafigos...how many do you have and how are they doing? Males and females, sizes? Do we know what species Rafigos has?

Thank you!

Peter

Some interesting points there Peter.

I've had 6 specimens (identified as Zephronia on Arachnoboards) in my keeping so far. These pills are kept communally in a 2ft stackable plastic container with moist cocopeat as substrate. I try to provide as much ventilation as I can; while trying to keep the humidity levels reasonable. I say reasonable because these pills were found in Cameron Highlands, Malaysia - and I live in Kuala Lumpur. Kuala Lumpur is much warmer than Cameron Highlands. The forests where these pills come from are cool and humid pretty much all throughout the day. I mist the walls of the container once every 2 days.

Here are some of my personal observation so far since I started keeping them end of May (27th May up to date).

1. I had 1 of the 6 specimens die out on me on the first week due to reasons known not by me.

2. The remaining 5 specimens have stayed hydrated and had possibly been feeding. I deduce this from the fact that they have not lost noticeable weight up til today. (Some will disagree with the conclusion drawn here as my progress keeping them is still at a very infantile age, it's alright to argue as we can all learn from each other).

3. What they feed on still puzzles me. They are extremely shy critters and will only roam in the dark. I will keep observing.

What I'm doing with them currently doesn't take much effort and I find them absolutely pleasing to keep. But should there be more insight and pointers showing why these beauties should not be collected and bred (try to), I may have to rethink. The only mature thing to do is to take the animals' side.

Do we know what species Rafigos has?Need more photos to know. But its reasonable to guess Arthrosphaera genus... there is one very similar in the region Arthrosphaera magna but has much more dark colors.... let me look into possiblilites...

Ok Matt. I'll try and take more pictures of them over next week. Any suggested angles for me to try and capture will be good.

P/s: My nick says rafiqos.

 

[Matt K]

I think the hard part will be a facial with antennae photo and the underneath side....maybe suprise them in the dark?

If you have access to a digital scale that weighs in grams 0.00 then you could weigh them once a week to determine somewhat if they are dehydrating / not eating or not.

I am not an expert with millipedes, just an enthusiast- I am sending a link to this thread to someone who would know better....

 

[rafiqos]

Hi guys, sorry for the late update. I have one more picture to share. The pills are still looking good and haven't shown significant signs of deterioration (albeit viewed from my untrained eyes).