strange hissing cockroach situation

sk891011

sk891011

First Instar
hello, i made this account for this specific problem.. i had 3 hissers, all female. it was all fine until one stopped hiding. i thought she was just being silly at first, i guess. nothing to worry about, though i was a bit anxious. then, i noticed her legs would twitch, and she wasn't really sleeping. then she started to lose her grip and coordination. she would run into walls and things continuously as if they weren't there and she wasn't able to burrow. her hiss was squeaky and weak rather than how it usually should be. i was able to pick her up without trouble and this is the one that hated me the most so it was surprising. this would continue until i had to euthanize her in the freezer. a week later, i noticed the 2nd one stopped hiding, and this time i was instantly worried. of course, she started doing the same exact things. except she would run around a lot more, and in circles, and it was actually a little scary. so then i decided to clean the tank, replace the substrate (not with a new kind i mean) and i also took out the fake plant in there because i thought the plastic couldve been toxic. i had an herb bag by my door with cedar, lavender, mugwort, etc. basically everything in there was toxic, so i removed that too. i didnt know what was in it at the time until i asked my mother who put it there. i feel bad for not considering that it would be bad for them. that roach died by herself one morning on her stomach. i was praying the last one would be fine, but just the other day, she stopped hiding too. her grip is actually good, though, and she was instantly able to flip herself when she fell onto her back. but shes erratic and shaky. i dont know what to do, i thought it would be fine after i removed the bag and cleaned the tank. i have a fan on and the window open at all times. the heating is fine, their diet is just peeled apples, fish flakes, and romaine lettuce from our garden that i know isnt sprayed with anything. i spray distilled water in there every other day. the substrate is a tropical bioblend zoo med substrate that was recommended by the reptile store i got all 3 from. they were all adults when i got them and i'm not sure who the oldest or the youngest was. all the wood in the tank is from the reptile store too as well as the dish for their food. there are rocks, two empty snail shells and 3 little carpet mosses which are from an etsy shop. i dont think any of those could be toxic at all. i dont use perfume, especially not in my room where they are. no humidifiers have been used in years. i used scented cleaners on my carpet because i spilled coffee, and the rug next to the tank where my cat puked, but that was months before this, so i really dont think these could be the culprit. if it is the bag of herbs or the cleaner or whatever, please tell me what i can do to get rid of it. i dont want to stop taking care of roaches forever, and i dont want to get new ones and have them die because of me. i know the other 2 that died definitely were from neurological damage, but is the most recent one something like old age? they were never lethargic, they were never starving or dehydrated, this was all out of no where. im so sad. please help, especially with getting whatever is killing them out of the air.
 
Firstly, I'd like to commend you on listing every single thing the roaches have been exposed to and the sources of each - it really helps paint a picture for us.

The first thought I had was pesticide poisoning. These are all symptoms of nerve damage that many insects experience from pesticides; however, you mentioned that you peel your apples and none of the other foods are treated with chemicals, including the water, so that eliminates that possibility; at least mostly.

The only sources that seem suspect to me are the items from the pet store, and the fact that they came from a pet store. One cannot possibly know exactly how the pet stores raised their roaches, if they raised them at all, which leaves the mystery of where they came from, so it's possible that they may have contracted some sort of disorder or poison from before you bought them. Though I've not heard of zoo med substrates causing any problems for roaches, brand-name premixed substrates aren't necessary for them so I recommend investing in a simple bag of coconut fiber/peat. I'd remove the wood bought from the pet store and for now just put in egg cartons. The moss, rocks and snail shells shouldn't be a threat so you can keep them if you want.

Overall I don't believe the issue is air-born. The problem could very likely be old age, even with those strange neurological behaviors. Like I said, when you get them from a pet store you have no idea what you're really getting.

Please don't freak out and be discouraged from keeping roaches. I know exactly how you feel as I've been in the same situation before but with a mold infestation that destroyed my whole colony. Chemicals like cleaners can be toxic but even if you were to wipe the sides of their enclosure with a Lysol wipe, they're not so sensitive that that would be a major hazard (I know this because I accidentally did it myself and thankfully they had no issues lol). So don't over-think it. If all fails and your last roach ends up dying, there's nothing wrong with trying again, except this time I recommend purchasing from someone within the hobby. If that is something you'd like to do, let us know and we can help you with that.

I would like to know a bit more to fill some missing information that may shed more light. When did you purchase the roaches/how long have you had them for? What do you keep them in (glass tank, plastic bin, etc.)? How much ventilation is there? Is airflow stagnant or pretty good in the room they're housed in?
 
Dianna said:
Firstly, I'd like to commend you on listing every single thing the roaches have been exposed to and the sources of each - it really helps paint a picture for us.

The first thought I had was pesticide poisoning. These are all symptoms of nerve damage that many insects experience from pesticides; however, you mentioned that you peel your apples and none of the other foods are treated with chemicals, including the water, so that eliminates that possibility; at least mostly.

The only sources that seem suspect to me are the items from the pet store, and the fact that they came from a pet store. One cannot possibly know exactly how the pet stores raised their roaches, if they raised them at all, which leaves the mystery of where they came from, so it's possible that they may have contracted some sort of disorder or poison from before you bought them. Though I've not heard of zoo med substrates causing any problems for roaches, brand-name premixed substrates aren't necessary for them so I recommend investing in a simple bag of coconut fiber/peat. I'd remove the wood bought from the pet store and for now just put in egg cartons. The moss, rocks and snail shells shouldn't be a threat so you can keep them if you want.

Overall I don't believe the issue is air-born. The problem could very likely be old age, even with those strange neurological behaviors. Like I said, when you get them from a pet store you have no idea what you're really getting.

Please don't freak out and be discouraged from keeping roaches. I know exactly how you feel as I've been in the same situation before but with a mold infestation that destroyed my whole colony. Chemicals like cleaners can be toxic but even if you were to wipe the sides of their enclosure with a Lysol wipe, they're not so sensitive that that would be a major hazard (I know this because I accidentally did it myself and thankfully they had no issues lol). So don't over-think it. If all fails and your last roach ends up dying, there's nothing wrong with trying again, except this time I recommend purchasing from someone within the hobby. If that is something you'd like to do, let us know and we can help you with that.

I would like to know a bit more to fill some missing information that may shed more light. When did you purchase the roaches/how long have you had them for? What do you keep them in (glass tank, plastic bin, etc.)? How much ventilation is there? Is airflow stagnant or pretty good in the room they're housed in?
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thank you so much for responding
its a glass tank with a mesh top, 12 gallons. i usually prefer to keep my door closed, but since the fan is on and i always have the window open, i dont think the airflow could be that bad. with that and the mesh top i think the ventilation is okay. the wood i talk about is a small log which they always liked to burrow under and a long stick they dont really care about. ive had these since i got my first girl, so i dont think theyre a problem either, and the pet store wasnt a big business like petsmart or petco or whatever. they've been basically kept in the same conditions since i got them. heating is a mat on one side. also, when it was cleaned, only hot water was used.

i got them individually, and the first one was a late birthday gift, i bought her on january 27th. the 2nd one i got was to accompany her, gotten on may 26th (i feel bad that i didnt buy 2 in the first place, sorry). and the last one i got on the 10th of august. the order that the incidents happened in were newest roach to oldest roach. the first incident was october 28th. the 2nd was november 13th.
the remaining one stopped hiding i believe the morning after the death of the 2nd which i believed was stress due to being alone. only about yesterday or the day before has she started acting as strange as the rest did. i had hope she wouldnt have a fate like the rest since she ate and i watched her drink (she was drinking from the water sprayed on her log), but i was wrong.

also, i dont think my parents are going to let me buy them from outside a pet store, especially if its in person if that was a possibility.
 
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sk891011 said:
i see.. i thought when they become old they become slow and die more peacefully though. not like this.
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It's terrible seeing them like that. Sorry for your upsetting experience.. It doesn't seem like any outside source could have induced their deaths, so don't doubt your husbandry. Please continue to keep and love roaches. :)
 
Ooh that's horrible to see.
The first one did fine from Jan to October.
The second did fine from May to November.
And this last one did fine from August till now
Is there anything different at all that happened these last 6 weeks?
What kind of wood is the log, how fresh is the log, where did it come from? You might message the moss seller and ask them if they use any chemicals.
 
Bhjjr said:
Ooh that's horrible to see.
The first one did fine from Jan to October.
The second did fine from May to November.
And this last one did fine from August till now
Is there anything different at all that happened these last 6 weeks?
What kind of wood is the log, how fresh is the log, where did it come from? You might message the moss seller and ask them if they use any chemicals.
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this is the first roach, the one from january to now. i’m not sure what type of wood it is unfortunately… it was in a pile with some other logs at the reptile store for sale. i don’t think it’s the cause though, since its basically the first thing i bought for the enclosure. the moss was ordered by my mother so i have no idea who the seller is, but i’ll remove those for the future just in case. nothing is different. i only posted it as an example, i truly do think it’s old age.. i hope. she only started to run around like this today. it was gradual.

right now as she’s on her back, her cerci(? not the best at their anatomy, sorry) is open for some reason, maybe a prolapse? i believe the first one that died did the same thing, but the second didn’t.
 
That's so sad to watch, the poor thing. It reminds me of DKS in tarantulas, and there's a lot of controversy over what causes it. I have no idea if roaches ever get the same thing, it just looks a lot like it.


The only thing I can think *might* be a cause is possibly the wood? If its pine or cedar, that can be problematic for inverts due to the resins. For the future, I'd try replacing the current wood hide with cork bark or some kind of hardwood like oak. Ask at the reptile store what they have that would be safe specifically for inverts, I'm sure they can point you to the right thing - and I'm definitely not saying the wood IS the culprit. It could easily be a cork bark round that you already have, I'm not sure. :)
 
Pounces said:
That's so sad to watch, the poor thing. It reminds me of DKS in tarantulas, and there's a lot of controversy over what causes it. I have no idea if roaches ever get the same thing, it just looks a lot like it.


The only thing I can think *might* be a cause is possibly the wood? If its pine or cedar, that can be problematic for inverts due to the resins. For the future, I'd try replacing the current wood hide with cork bark or some kind of hardwood like oak. Ask at the reptile store what they have that would be safe specifically for inverts, I'm sure they can point you to the right thing - and I'm definitely not saying the wood IS the culprit. It could easily be a cork bark round that you already have, I'm not sure. :)
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oh wow, that is really similar!

i just looked it up and it seems to actually be cork bark, haha. so not that..
 
Hello all together,

i allow myself to put my issue on that existing thread instead of opening a new one.

I had exact the same issue with two newly purchased groups of Shelfordella lateralis. Exactly the same symptoms, with the animals barely eating and dying one by one, until just about ten animals of the bought 100 grams of roach (which means, a lot of dead roaches!) survived. The breeding stocks also smelled very strong, and they only had pieces of egg cartons in their boxes, as well as what appeared to be food residue that looked like solidified butter. I had never seen anything like it before. At first, I thought they had been affected by the cool transport temperatures, so I fed a few of the animals to the spiders. Could this have had an effect on the spiders that ate these cockroaches?

However, as I said, more and more roaches died, so I stopped feeding them to my spiders and just tried to keep them alive. I had previously had a large group of S. lateralis that ate well, reproduced, and were strong and healthy. These two groups were completely different: the animals hardly ate, did not reproduce, and died with all the symptoms of the hissers mentioned here, as I mentioned. I only had wood shavings as proven bedding and egg cartons, so the animals must have brought whatever killed them with them...

So you are certain that the symptoms and the numerous deaths of the animals are due to pesticide poisoning? As I said, they hardly ate anything I offered them, lost weight as a result, and died like flies. Twitching, uncoordinated, disoriented, and in the end with little or no escape reflex...
I am now concerned that this may have affected some of the spiders that initially ate the cockroaches, although I only selected animals that were in top condition for feeding, suspecting nothing untoward. Subsequently, I had a few deaths among my spiderlings, which seemed strangely frequent. Some spiders seemed completely unaffected, others died, and one, Tapinauchenius sanctivicenti, has not spun its web since, eats very, very hesitantly, and ultimately even rejected two of the Shelfordella, preferring to form a community with them. These two were among the few animals from the 100 grams I bought that survived at all.

Very strange indeed, since the roaches came from a reputable feeder breeder, who should not be using any protective agents that could be harmful to their products... I would also like to rule out poisoned feed. However, I am still puzzled by this hardened paste that was apparently included as feed in the boxes I purchased...
Does anyone know what this is? I've never seen it before; there were always small pellets or ground grain/wheat as food, but now this stuff... Does anyone know what it is? It's slightly yellowish, like solidified butter in appearance...

PS: The breeder did not respond to my email in which I complained about the delivery and asked about this feed. Of course, I will never buy anything from them again.
 
Andreas75 said:
Hello all together,

i allow myself to put my issue on that existing thread instead of opening a new one.

I had exact the same issue with two newly purchased groups of Shelfordella lateralis. Exactly the same symptoms, with the animals barely eating and dying one by one, until just about ten animals of the bought 100 grams of roach (which means, a lot of dead roaches!) survived. The breeding stocks also smelled very strong, and they only had pieces of egg cartons in their boxes, as well as what appeared to be food residue that looked like solidified butter. I had never seen anything like it before. At first, I thought they had been affected by the cool transport temperatures, so I fed a few of the animals to the spiders. Could this have had an effect on the spiders that ate these cockroaches?

However, as I said, more and more roaches died, so I stopped feeding them to my spiders and just tried to keep them alive. I had previously had a large group of S. lateralis that ate well, reproduced, and were strong and healthy. These two groups were completely different: the animals hardly ate, did not reproduce, and died with all the symptoms of the hissers mentioned here, as I mentioned. I only had wood shavings as proven bedding and egg cartons, so the animals must have brought whatever killed them with them...

So you are certain that the symptoms and the numerous deaths of the animals are due to pesticide poisoning? As I said, they hardly ate anything I offered them, lost weight as a result, and died like flies. Twitching, uncoordinated, disoriented, and in the end with little or no escape reflex...
I am now concerned that this may have affected some of the spiders that initially ate the cockroaches, although I only selected animals that were in top condition for feeding, suspecting nothing untoward. Subsequently, I had a few deaths among my spiderlings, which seemed strangely frequent. Some spiders seemed completely unaffected, others died, and one, Tapinauchenius sanctivicenti, has not spun its web since, eats very, very hesitantly, and ultimately even rejected two of the Shelfordella, preferring to form a community with them. These two were among the few animals from the 100 grams I bought that survived at all.

Very strange indeed, since the roaches came from a reputable feeder breeder, who should not be using any protective agents that could be harmful to their products... I would also like to rule out poisoned feed. However, I am still puzzled by this hardened paste that was apparently included as feed in the boxes I purchased...
Does anyone know what this is? I've never seen it before; there were always small pellets or ground grain/wheat as food, but now this stuff... Does anyone know what it is? It's slightly yellowish, like solidified butter in appearance...

PS: The breeder did not respond to my email in which I complained about the delivery and asked about this feed. Of course, I will never buy anything from them again.
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do you have any pictures of the yellow thing? it could be a dropped ootheca, aka an empty egg sac. i don’t know if this specific species does this, but sometimes females will abort their ootheca when stressed, and therefore are unable to reproduce anymore.

i’m still not extremely certain what the cause of death was since i always doubt a lot of things though i believe my case was old age like everyone else said. were the roaches that you bought adults?

i’m unsure about the spider situation, though. i know nothing about spiders. someone else might respond and help you with that, sorry. but overall that is weird that it would affect your spiders.
 
okay, i googled it and it seems that species oothecae are brown, rather than yellow like for example a hissing cockroach. unfortunately i have no clue about that yellow thing either. could just be a spoiled fruit. if not, its a dumb suggestion, but it could be.. beetle jelly..? i know some owners feed their roaches beetle jelly. but i don’t really think jelly does what you’ve described (being/becoming solid). that is strange and i hope the breeder responds to you soon.
 
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Hy!

Thanks for your reply :). I probably didn't express myself clearly, sorry for that. It was no single thing, the whole bottom of the box was covered with that, obviously a feed, mass. Never seen it before, i saw it also in other boxes from the same breeder, must be a new feed for roaches on the journy. Or maybe in general, maybe to prevent mites on grain feed.
The roaches didn't really eat it; at least it looked completely intact, which is why I'm suspicious that it caused the cockroaches' death. As I said, 100 grams of cockroaches of all sizes, all dead within two to three months except for ten. They didn't molt and ate little to nothing, as described.
Very strange, and as I said, the group smelled so bad, even though I always collected the dead ones quickly—and healthy red runners are actually rather odorless.

But thank you again. I'll just write to the breeder again and again, maybe he'll reply soon, just for him to have some peace and quiet at last
;).
 
Andreas75 said:
Hy!

Thanks for your reply :). I probably didn't express myself clearly, sorry for that. It was no single thing, the whole bottom of the box was covered with that, obviously a feed, mass. Never seen it before, i saw it also in other boxes from the same breeder, must be a new feed for roaches on the journy. Or maybe in general, maybe to prevent mites on grain feed.
The roaches didn't really eat it; at least it looked completely intact, which is why I'm suspicious that it caused the cockroaches' death. As I said, 100 grams of cockroaches of all sizes, all dead within two to three months except for ten. They didn't molt and ate little to nothing, as described.
Very strange, and as I said, the group smelled so bad, even though I always collected the dead ones quickly—and healthy red runners are actually rather odorless.

But thank you again. I'll just write to the breeder again and again, maybe he'll reply soon, just for him to have some peace and quiet at last
;).
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If they started dying off soon after you received them, then they likely caught something from before you got them.

If you can share a picture of the 'paste' you're describing then we can help identify it.

You described the person you purchased them from as a feeder breeder, which makes me think of large companies, like Fluker's, not an individual in the hobby. Personally I haven't had any problems buying dubia roaches from feeder brands, but considering that they breed roaches by the several thousands in farming systems, it's likely that some of the stock was 'contaminated'. Brands/individuals that breed roaches specifically for feeding are not inherently incompetent, but they don't give the same attention or care to their roaches that hobbyists do.

I agree with your decision to not purchase from that same person going forward, considering the situation and the fact that they aren't communicating.
 
sk891011 said:
okay, i googled it and it seems that species oothecae are brown, rather than yellow like for example a hissing cockroach. unfortunately i have no clue about that yellow thing either. could just be a spoiled fruit. if not, its a dumb suggestion, but it could be.. beetle jelly..? i know some owners feed their roaches beetle jelly. but i don’t really think jelly does what you’ve described (being/becoming solid). that is strange and i hope the breeder responds to you soon.
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I vote for old jelly. The description fits what happens to jellies I use as they dry up.
Possibly could be slime mold as well.
 
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