Protein supplement

The deformed females were round. Round, like a circle. They got around and seem to function adequately. I used them as feeders, which I rarely do with my females.

I have kept Orange Heads and they did well on the diet I feed. I kept the humidity higher and the population density lower and they did fine.

As I stated before, I am not completely convinced protein content is the main or only issue. I do believe a lot of folks feed too much and the wrong kind of protein.

 
Here is another thought. Cave dwelling species would also have the opportunity to dine on the occasional baby bat and dead adult bat. This would be high in protein, but not available daily.

 
Well, actually bat guano is higher in protein than dead bats. Bat guano, as I mentioned above, is 54% protein. By comparison, cooked hamburger is 23 percent protein and dry cat food is usually around 30%.

Fingerlakefeeders said:
The deformed females were round. Round, like a circle. They got around and seem to function adequately. I used them as feeders, which I rarely do with my females.
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I'm still not convinced that they were deformed. Did you look at the picture I posted a link to?

 
Then don't be convinced. I can go look at thousands of Dubias right now and not see a single roach like those females. They were deformed. I saw your pictures, read your argument and I disagree. It also happened with Death Heads in significant numbers.

You are operating under the assumption that cave dwelling roaches only inhabit caves and eat primarily guano. I think that would be the exception rather than the rule. You are also assuming that all guano has that level of protein. Finally, a part of that protein is found in the chitinous exoskeletons of the partially digested insects and would likely be difficult or impossible to digest, even for a roach.

 
I was never operating under the assumptions that they "only" inhabit caves and "only" eat guano. It is a fact that caves containing large numbers of bats support huge numbers of cockroaches, who thrive on a diet of almost nothing but guano, because there is almost nothing else to eat in a cave and if there was, why would they when an extremely rich food is so plentiful? If they also live outside the cave and eat decaying vegetation, good for them. But it's doubtful they teem in the thousands like in a cave where it basically rains protein. More protein= more growth and reproduction.

Why wouldn't all bat feces contain that much protein? Like I already said, even if it did vary depending on species and prey eaten I find it hard to believe the change would be so dramatic as to bring the protein content down into the range of anything that people already feed to roaches.

Fingerlakefeeders said:
Finally, a part of that protein is found in the chitinous exoskeletons of the partially digested insects and would likely be difficult or impossible to digest, even for a roach.
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Chitin isn't a protein. It's a carbohydrate.

 
Well, does a nutritional analysis measure this stuff? I believe what they meant by "protein percentage" is usable protein percentage. The fact that a salamander can sustain itself on guano is sufficient proof for me that it contains plenty of digestible protein.

EDIT: wait a minute, glucosamine isn't a protein. It's in the name: GLUCOSEamine.

Chitin is more like cellulose than it is like keratin.

 
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I already read that. Where does it say it's a protein? Even if it is "technically a protein" (which by the looks of it it is not) I don't think that's what they measure in a nutritional analysis...

 
I can't teach you organic chemistry. Glucosamine is an amino sugar, similar to melamine, in that it can give a false picture of true protein content. Remember the Chinese company that was boosting the protein analysis of baby formula with melamine? Same principle. Also, amino sugars are known to inhibit bacterial protein synthesis. Try to connect the dots.

 
It is true that protein content is analyzed by measuring nitrogen, and amino sugars are made of nitrogen. But why do you keep on changing the story? First you said chitin was protein, (which it isn't ) then you said it contains a form of protein, (which it doesn't), and now you're saying it contains compounds that can be mistaken for protein.

If bat guano is so low in protein, please explain how the salamander can survive and grow eating it.

 
That page doesn't say anything about glucosamine, amino sugars, chitin or really anything related to what we're discussing. It seems to me, that you didn't actually know anything about this topic and you're doing research trying to find something that supports your argument. Like you said, you are convinced of your perspective. So it seems that rather than looking at evidence to draw a conclusion, you're looking for evidence that supports your already formed conclusion. And now, I almost feel as though your'e giving me links to random biochemistry related articles attempting to bewilder me. That article doesn't seem to be related to the discussion at all.

Not too long ago I read the paper about cockroaches and uric acid, and it is what first convinced me to feed my roaches vegetarian, but more recently I have seen more evidence against this in commonly kept species and changed my opinion. You seem to find it more difficult because you've already invested in your argument too much.

I think I should mention that this whole discussion about protein and chitin and stuff comes from you're idea that roaches can't digest it. Ever seen a roach eat its exuvia? Or scavenge another insect?

Btw, I'm not upset. I was just growing skeptical that you even had any idea what you were talking about.

 
Since hard, empirical evidence is lacking on the issue of protein supplementation, the hobbyist must turn to anecdotal evidence; and it overwhelmingly advises the use of protein supplementation: dog food, cat food, chicken feed, fish flakes...

 
Well, regardless of the different conclusions we draw based on our personal experience and research, this sure has been fun. Thank you, Sandwich. You're a good sport.

 
I followed the preceding debate with great interest. Much more interesting and entertaining than anything the Republican candidates have to offer.

 
Having read some of the studies and fiddled around with amounts, I've found leaving it to my P. Nivae to decide has been the best way to avoid issues. One of the things I find rather interesting about them is watching their varying prefrences at meal time. I offer a variety of veggies, fruits, oats, bark, leaf litter, and dog kibble on a regular basis. The nymphs swarm the kibble, meanwhile the adults seem way more keen on sticking to fruits/veggies. Even there however I've noticed other splits. For instance the nymphs really seem to love zuccine while the adults are especially partial to banana.

When I initially started out I read some of the info on protein and began offering dog food as only a treat. This resulted in canniblisim. It was interesting in its own right to see. The nymphs would target a subadult as it shed to adulthood and tear into it like a pack of wolves until nothing was left.

 
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