G vanwaerebecki X G oblongonota

Roach collector said:
Not to be mean but isn't making hybrid hissers a big no no in the roach hobby?
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Personally I don't mind if people make hybrids as long as they are labled as such, the biggest problem is that everyone is labeling them as portentosa, when in reality they are hybrids. If everyone were to lable theirs properly and sell them to responsible owners, then it wouldn't be a problem in my book.

 
Roach collector said:
Ohh I get it so they would have to be both in the same family like elliptorhina,gromphadorhina or something else
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Yes, Gromphadorhina will only breed with other Gromphadorhina, or with Princisia but there is a debate on whether or not those belong in Gromphadorhina. Same with Elliptorhina, they will only breed with other Elliptorhina.

 
Roach collector said:
It would be cool to make a dwarf javanica. ( E.chopardi x E.javanica)
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You could try that, but I don't think it'd work. There's a massive amount of debate surrounding Gromphadorhina. I personally think that every Gromphadorhina in the hobby is G. portentosa, and all the different "species" are just color morphs. If they truly were different species, they shouldn't be able to interbreed. E. javanica and E. chopardi are pretty clearly different species. I don't think they'd interbreed.

 
Tenevanica said:
You could try that, but I don't think it'd work. There's a massive amount of debate surrounding Gromphadorhina. I personally think that every Gromphadorhina in the hobby is G. portentosa, and all the different "species" are just color morphs. If they truly were different species, they shouldn't be able to interbreed. E. javanica and E. chopardi are pretty clearly different species. I don't think they'd interbreed.
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What about blaberus? Most, if not all blaberus species can cross with eachother.

Also, if say oblongonata was simply a "color morph" why would it consistently produce individuals that dwarf grandidieri and portentosa in size?

 
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Sleepy Lemur said:
What about blaberus? Most, if not all blaberus species can cross with eachother.

Also, if say oblongonata was simply a "color morph" why would it consistently produce individuals that dwarf grandidieri and portentosa in size?
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Same goes with Blaberus. I didn't mention it there but I had that suspicion before.

As for the part about G. oblongonata, let me ask you this: Why do some dog breeds dwarf others? Just because it's the same species doesn't mean there can't be massive amounts of variation. If all Gromphadorhina were G. portentosa, and most Blaberus were the same, the different morphs would be the equivalent of breeds.

 
Tenevanica said:
Same goes with Blaberus. I didn't mention it there but I had that suspicion before.

As for the part about G. oblongonata, let me ask you this: Why do some dog breeds dwarf others? Just because it's the same species doesn't mean there can't be massive amounts of variation. If all Gromphadorhina were G. portentosa, and most Blaberus were the same, the different morphs would be the equivalent of breeds.
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so then how are Elliptorhina Javanica and Elliptorhina chopardi obviously different species, while G. Oblongonata and G. Portentosa are, in your opinion, the same? If size, coloration, and physical features are not species defining traits, then wouldn't both elliptorhina be the same species, just color morphs?

I only ask because both Elliptorhina species look pretty similar. Aside from Javanica being a bit bigger and having yellow bands and a reddish pronotum (sometimes) they both look pretty similar.

 
It also comes down to the genitalia, and I'm willing to bet Elliptorhina Javanica would readily hybridize with Elliptorhina Chopardi.

 
Sleepy Lemur said:
It also comes down to the genitalia, and I'm willing to bet Elliptorhina Javanica would readily hybridize with Elliptorhina Chopardi.
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They won't hybridize. I haven't tried it myself, but I can't find any cases of Elliptorhina hybridization. There is some form of isolation there, and you're right, it probably does have to do with the genitalia.

If you can find a confirmed report of that, please tell me. I can then have that opinion about Elliptorhina as well :P

 
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Tenevanica said:
They won't hybridize. I haven't tried it myself, but I can't find any cases of Elliptorhina hybridization. There is some form of isolation there, and you're right, it probably does have to do with the genitalia.
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Perhaps a key of the genitalia of each species (which I cannot find) would be the answer..

 
Tenevanica said:
You could try that, but I don't think it'd work. There's a massive amount of debate surrounding Gromphadorhina. I personally think that every Gromphadorhina in the hobby is G. portentosa, and all the different "species" are just color morphs. If they truly were different species, they shouldn't be able to interbreed. E. javanica and E. chopardi are pretty clearly different species. I don't think they'd interbreed.
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That is true. It is also true of many taxa when you study them closely. Defining "species" is a tricky thing.

For example, north american snakes of the genera Patherophis, Pituophis, and Lampropeltis can all interbreed successfully (with fertile offspring) in captivity, but they don't in the wild, even when their ranges overlap. They are *behaviorally* isolated.

I can't recall the exact species or location, but some populations of salamanders have been shown to be unable to interbreed from the extreme ends of their range, but populations can interbreed with adjacent populations. So there are potentially two different species on a continum across the range. It can be very hard to pin point what a species is.

For the hissers, I imagine the Gromphadorhina species, and the Elliptorhina species, may represent somewhat isolated populations at different parts in their range. In captivity, they are functionally morphs. In the wild, there may be some populations of that cannot interbreed, so we may have partial speciation, but it does not appear this is represented in the captive breed populations.

So maybe the consensus is *functionally* three species in captivity? Gromphadorian sp., E. javanica, and E. chopardi?

 
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varnon said:
That is true. It is also true of many taxa when you study them closely. Defining "species" is a tricky thing.

For example, north american snakes of the genera Patherophis, Pituophis, and Lampropeltis can all interbreed successfully (with fertile offspring) in captivity, but they don't in the wild, even when their ranges overlap. They are *behaviorally* isolated.

I can't recall the exact species or location, but some populations of salamanders have been shown to be unable to interbreed from the extreme ends of their range, but populations can interbreed with adjacent populations. So there are potentially two different species on a continum across the range. It can be very hard to pin point what a species is.

For the hissers, I imagine the Gromphadorhina species, and the Elliptorhina species, may represent somewhat isolated populations at different parts in their range. In captivity, they are functionally morphs. In the wild, there may be some populations of that cannot interbreed, so we may have partial speciation, but it does not appear this is represented in the captive breed populations.

So maybe the consensus is *functionally* three species in captivity? Gromphadorian sp., E. javanica, and E. chopardi?
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If we are talking species that can produce "hissing" sounds, there's also Elliptorhina laevigata, Elliptorhina Davidi, and Aeluropoda Insignis as well. If I'm not mistaken, according to bug guide, there are several more "hisser" species in different genus not in the hobby.

 
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