Protein supplement

so you're saying that you have actually observed harmful effects from feeding protein to blaberid roaches? Because before you didn't mention any actual observations, you just said to google a paper done on one species in a completely different family.

 
Yes. Specifically to detritivore species..."the vast majority of available species." These are general observations, not a carefully documented study or paper. What I have observed may or may not be completely caused by diet, but may be a cumulative effect caused by diet, certain environmental factors and the presence of preservatives found in commercial cat, dog and fish feed. What I have observed is that once a high protein diet is fed, a certain percentage of almost exclusively females become stunted and deformed. The affected adult females are nearly round and approximately 60% normal length. It takes several generations to fully manifest, but it can affect approximately 10-15% of the female population. I have noticed this in Dubias and different strains of Death Heads primarily. Once the affected females were culled and their diet adjusted the stunted females are no longer produced. I cited that particular study because it is easy to understand. There have been other documented instances in other species and with a curious mind and nimble fingers, many can be accessed free of charge on the internet. I have drawn conclusions on my research and experience that may not be entirely accurate or supportable. I am no scientist, but have a background in military law enforcement and risk management which make for a decent critical thinking/problem solving skill set. I am not a specie collector, I currently keep 5 species, but have kept many others in the past.

 
You claim these females are "stunted" because they're round in shape? Length fluctuates according to how pregnant or full of food they are. A newly eclosed female, one who has given birth recently, or one that is starved and dehydrated will be short, flat and round while a pregnant or full female will be more elongated. What you have to look at to determine size is the pronotum. It doesn't change size. And even then other factors such as heat and overcrowding can contribute to stunted adults.

Cockroaches in the genus Eublaberus, Periplaneta and I imagine at least some members of the genus Blaberus given that they are called "cave roaches" live in caves and feed upon piles of bat guano. Bats have an inefficient digestive system and their waste products contain more protein than the insects they eat, 54% protein. I can't really think of any other food that has that much protein, and it's all animal based. Even forest dwelling species have access to protein rich fungal mycelia that grow on decaying leaves. Ever dug through some leaf litter or flipped over a log and seen just how much fungi there is under there?

Btw, I wasn't doubting that blaberid roaches have those microbes to convert the urea. I just think the mechanism that kills germans may be harmless to them. Think about it, a human home doesn't have many protein rich food sources. Maybe they're such a successful pest species because of they're adapted to live on foods that are poor in protein, and that's why their bodies don't know what to do with too much protein.

 
You are obviously convinced of your perspective, as am I. We will agree to disagree. Keep preaching your artificial high protein, processed diet. I will advocate for what I know works.

 
Well actually I feed my biggest colony mostly a vegetarian diet. They're feeders and I don't want the nasty stuff working its way up the food chain. But for the roaches themselves I've seen no evidence that it would do anything but benefit them.

 
"Nasty Stuff" is the problem. It may not affect them in the short term, but it does. I raise thousands of Dubias a month and I see the healthy examples of these roaches constantly...which is how I am so in tune when something is off. The stunted females I have described cannot be explained away.

"Length fluctuates according to how pregnant or full of food they are. A newly eclosed female, one who has given birth recently, or one that is starved and dehydrated will be short, flat and round while a pregnant or full female will be more elongated."

I disagree with those statements in the context of being an explanation for what I've described. Whether or not a female is gravid or not, and whether or not they've eaten does not significantly change their dimensions. Certainly not to the degree I described. Further, the Bat Guano argument is irrelevant when you consider the probable nutritional analysis verses commercially available pet foods.

http://m.rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/273/1585/439.full

 
I'm not talking about the "nasty stuff." I'm talking about protein. I don't see how there could be any problem with feeding "clean" sources of protein such as eggs, other insects, or soybeans.

Fruit bats don't form large communal roosts in caves like insectivorous bats do.

 
Fingerlakefeeders said:
"Length fluctuates according to how pregnant or full of food they are. A newly eclosed female, one who has given birth recently, or one that is starved and dehydrated will be short, flat and round while a pregnant or full female will be more elongated."

I disagree with those statements in the context of being an explanation for what I've described. Whether or not a female is gravid or not, and whether or not they've eaten does not significantly change their dimensions. Certainly not to the degree I described.
Click to expand...
Let me show what I mean. Here's two females I just pulled from my colony.

http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/salmonsaladsandwic/media/image.jpg1_zpsbop8fmsh.jpg.html

One has just molted to adulthood. Her exoskeleton was still noticeably soft and in person her colors are slightly paler and grayer. As you can see, she is flat and round and her abdominal segments are retracted. The other female is gravid or has recently gorged herself on fruit, probably both. Her abdomen is distended and elongated and she is more cylindrical in shape. But you can see that the recently emerged female has a larger pronotum, which is a rigid part of the exoskeleton that doesn't change size. So when she becomes pregnant she will be larger than the other one. Don't rely on abdomen shape to gauge adult size, the only thing it tells you is how much stuff is in their belly at any given time. It's the same with nymphs too. A nymph who is almost ready to molt is just as distended as a gravid female.

 
Then keep doing what you are doing. You mention non-processed forms of protein that would be far better than commercial pet foods. However, I would avoid soybeans due to anti-nutritional factors such as saponins and trypsin inhibitors, to name two. You need to buff up on your bat info, though. There are omnivorous, frugivorous and nectivorous bats that use caves. Also, you used a study to support your point that was done on one bat specie in an Oklahoma Ozark cave. My point is that not all guano has the same nutritional profile that you mentioned.

I respect your opinion, though I disagree with certain aspects of it. It seems you have given roach nutrition serious thought and I applaud you.

 
I understand your point. I am talking about something far different. They stood out in cultures of thousands of roaches. They reminded me of the balloon mollies or certain types of goldfish that have shortened, compacted bodies. They were deformed. It hasn't happened since changing their diet several years ago. Problem solved.

 
What I meant was that fruit bats aren't the dominant bat species in caves that form the huge colonies. Compared to insectivorous bats the amount of guano they are responsible for is probably minimal.

So you're saying that just because the feces of only one bat species has been analyzed, that means other species with similar diets must be totally different? Considering that the gray bat guano is 54% protein (which is A LOT!), even if protein levels among different bat species do vary significantly it would still in all likelihood be higher than any pet food. Or really any food.

 
Fingerlakefeeders said:
I understand your point. I am talking about something far different. They stood out in cultures of thousands of roaches. They reminded me of the balloon mollies or certain types of goldfish that have shortened, compacted bodies. They were deformed. It hasn't happened since changing their diet several years ago. Problem solved.
Click to expand...
Do you have any pictures of them?

 
Did they just look wierd, or were they disabled? Like, they had trouble moving around? Perhaps you don't see them anymore because the other roaches, with less protein, eat them. Or, feeding them a protein rich diet allows weak, deformed roaches that otherwise wouldn't survive to reach adulthood.

 
Very interesting discussion. I guess the true test to this debate would be with a wing biting species, eublaberus for example. Feeding one a high animal protein diet and the other a low protein diet. If the normal thinking is correct the population fed the lower protein will have chewed wings. Whe I feed my eublaberus "pantanal" fish food and Oats daily they eat the oats first. When I feed them oats only for several days then add fish food, they eat the fish food first.

 
That's what I'm doing right now with dubias. Probably not the best subject since I don't believe they are a cave dwelling species, but so far growth seems directly correlated with protein content of food.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top